Ontkenning van de realiteit hier en nu - Pagina 2

Ogenblik-sem · 29 June 2012, 11:07

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Sytze

Er kan onnoemelijk veel over gezegd worden, dat blijkt toch ?

Nee, niet volgens jou.

29 June 2012, 11:09

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Keen

De 'Message' die door kennis vertegenwoordigt word...is een claim, en die heeft weer niets te maken met de 'Message' die precies dit' moment, alreeds vertegenwoordigt word door alles en iedereen .

Kortom ( in a.b.N) de boodschap heeft geen boodschap nodig

Geen idee waar je het over hebt.
Ik zie wat grove aannames en dientengevolge verkeerde conclusies die me hoegenaamd niks zeggen.

29 June 2012, 11:11

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Ogenblik-sem

Nee, niet volgens jou.

Ik zie dat er niet als betekenis staan.
Bovendien zou ik daarmee de realiteit ontkennen.

Ogenblik-sem · 29 June 2012, 11:15

Nee hoor.

Alle woorden - concepten zijn per definitie onwaar omdat ze zich binnen het rationele vlak bevinden.
Jouw eigen woorden. (onwaar dus

)

Rob · 29 June 2012, 11:19

But of course it cannot stop there. ?I am nothing? or ?there is nothing? ? that?s still totally dualistic. What happened then is that nothing collapsed into everything, and that?s as close as I can come in words. The emptiness finally revealed itself to be total fullness. The detachment and pointlessness (?nothing matters! Everything is meaningless!?) gave way to a fullness of being, to a joy beyond words, a contentment without a name. You could say that Jeff died. The seeker died. The longing for something more died.
You see, there was a time, before the books and the talks, where I had fallen into the ?everything is pointless, there is nothing I can do? trap and, well, for hours and days on end, I would just walk around my home town of Oxford, and there was absolutely nothing in existence, absolutely nothing happening at all. There was no world, no past or future, nothing. Only the Void. And it was all so very grey and lacking in joy. And I was so very, very serious about something called ?spirituality? (and, funnily enough, it was at this time that I also believed I was awakened!). In the book Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse, this stance is summed up as follows:
?I [find] neither home nor company, nothing but a seat from which to view a stage where strange people [play] strange parts? Time and the world, money and power belong to the small people and the shallow people. To the rest, to the real men, belongs nothing.?
I thought I was a real man, not one of those ignorant fools who were still lost in the ?relative? world (whatever that meant). Back then, I thought this was what nonduality was all about. But then (and I cannot really say ?when? because it doesn?t happen in time), after much agony, there was a collapse of the nothing into everything, and of course, about this I cannot really say a word. Even the absolute detachment from life, even that had been completely dualistic. It takes a person to be detached, and a world to be detached from. The ?final? seeing (and I don?t like to call it that, but it?ll do for now) was the death of the person, the person who could be detached or not, and a revelation (for no-one) that it was all a dance, a play, ALL of it, ALL of it, including all the bits that Jeff had rejected, including that nasty ?relative? world that was so full of ignorance and people who were unaware of their ?true nature? (whatever that meant). There was a plunge into the absolute mystery of it all?. totally beyond words, totally beyond language. For so long there had been a deadness, a lack of joy, a sitting-back and watching the world go by without me. It had been such a denial of the relative, a denial of the ?world?. The world had become the enemy, because it wasn?t essentially real. Everyday human interactions had lost their meaning, because there were no others. After a lifetime of misery and self-consciousness it had initially been a relief to be ?free? from the world of form. But ? and here?s what I couldn?t see then ? the nothingness had just become another trap. The freedom I?d initially found in the emptiness had morphed into a prison. Freedom in the formless had become a denial of form. But, as the Buddhist Heart Sutra has been reminding us for thousands of years:
?Form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form??
There had been a resting in Emptiness. But it still had not been seen in clarity that Emptiness was Form. There was still a ?me? there, subtly denying life. Pretending he was more ?spiritual? or ?awake? than others, feeling smug and safe, and somewhat arrogant, but secretly joyless in his Emptiness.
Then one day, it all collapsed. The denial of form could not hold itself up. I cannot put it into words, but if I could, it would be something like this. Jeff, after another day of walking through Oxford, after another day of absolutely nothing, another day of detachment from the world, collapsed on the grass in Christ Church Meadow, and looked up at a shaft of sunlight coming through the branches of a tree.
And Life said ?LIVE, DAMN IT, LIVE!?

Van hier:
http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/re...-and-nihilism/

29 June 2012, 11:26

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Ogenblik-sem

Nee hoor.

Alle woorden - concepten zijn per definitie onwaar omdat ze zich binnen het rationele vlak bevinden.
Jouw eigen woorden. (onwaar dus

)

Ik zie mij dat niet gezegd hebben en als je dat er uit concludeert heeft dat niet mijn intentie gehad daarop uit te komen.

Voor mij is alles in de dualiteit 'relatief' waar en met deze relatieve waarheid ben je te bereiken, je reageert immers.

Maar ik vind dit weer onzinnige gesprekken, ik heb wel wat beters te doen.

Ogenblik-sem · 29 June 2012, 11:51

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Sytze

Maar ik vind dit weer onzinnige gesprekken, ik heb wel wat beters te doen.

Nee, dat had je niet.
The mind is talking.

diane · 29 June 2012, 11:52

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Rob

?Form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form??

And Life said ?LIVE, DAMN IT, LIVE!?

Het verhaal van Jeff komt me bekend voor..
Een eye-opener, een opluchting, gewoon weer Diane mogen en kunnen zijn.
Hoe zou ik iets anders kunnen zijn?
En het raadsel wat zich in en als mij afspeelt niet meer "te pakken" proberen te krijgen.
Want eerlijk waar, ik heb geen flauw idee.

Rob · 29 June 2012, 12:08

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door diane

Het verhaal van Jeff komt me bekend voor..
Een eye-opener, een opluchting, gewoon weer Diane mogen en kunnen zijn.
Hoe zou ik iets anders kunnen zijn?
En het raadsel wat zich in en als mij afspeelt niet meer "te pakken" proberen te krijgen.
Want eerlijk waar, ik heb geen flauw idee.

Het komt mij ook erg bekend voor, bij mezelf.
Het meest aangenaam verrast ben ik nog steeds
bij het zien van de levende aanwezigheid
bij hen die zich nog nooit met deze materie bezig hebben gehouden.

Maar blijkbaar is er soms een omweg nodig om hier op uit te komen.

sagnaar · 29 June 2012, 12:20

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Sytze

Geen idee waar je het over hebt.
Ik zie wat grove aannames en dientengevolge verkeerde conclusies die me hoegenaamd niks zeggen.

Jawel hoor, het zijn ideeen, gedachten waar ik het over heb.

Waar zie je de aanname ?
Waarin zie je het grove ?
Welke conclusie is verkeerd ?

ALLES' zegt mij' iets....ik VERMIJD niks.

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29 June 2012, 11:15	#14
Ogenblik-sem Jubilaris Geregistreerd: 8 September 2011 Berichten: 208	Nee hoor. Alle woorden - concepten zijn per definitie onwaar omdat ze zich binnen het rationele vlak bevinden. Jouw eigen woorden. (onwaar dus )

29 June 2012, 11:19	#15
Rob Actuaris Geregistreerd: 27 April 2010 Berichten: 513	But of course it cannot stop there. ?I am nothing? or ?there is nothing? ? that?s still totally dualistic. What happened then is that nothing collapsed into everything, and that?s as close as I can come in words. The emptiness finally revealed itself to be total fullness. The detachment and pointlessness (?nothing matters! Everything is meaningless!?) gave way to a fullness of being, to a joy beyond words, a contentment without a name. You could say that Jeff died. The seeker died. The longing for something more died. You see, there was a time, before the books and the talks, where I had fallen into the ?everything is pointless, there is nothing I can do? trap and, well, for hours and days on end, I would just walk around my home town of Oxford, and there was absolutely nothing in existence, absolutely nothing happening at all. There was no world, no past or future, nothing. Only the Void. And it was all so very grey and lacking in joy. And I was so very, very serious about something called ?spirituality? (and, funnily enough, it was at this time that I also believed I was awakened!). In the book Steppenwolf by Herman Hesse, this stance is summed up as follows: ?I [find] neither home nor company, nothing but a seat from which to view a stage where strange people [play] strange parts? Time and the world, money and power belong to the small people and the shallow people. To the rest, to the real men, belongs nothing.? I thought I was a real man, not one of those ignorant fools who were still lost in the ?relative? world (whatever that meant). Back then, I thought this was what nonduality was all about. But then (and I cannot really say ?when? because it doesn?t happen in time), after much agony, there was a collapse of the nothing into everything, and of course, about this I cannot really say a word. Even the absolute detachment from life, even that had been completely dualistic. It takes a person to be detached, and a world to be detached from. The ?final? seeing (and I don?t like to call it that, but it?ll do for now) was the death of the person, the person who could be detached or not, and a revelation (for no-one) that it was all a dance, a play, ALL of it, ALL of it, including all the bits that Jeff had rejected, including that nasty ?relative? world that was so full of ignorance and people who were unaware of their ?true nature? (whatever that meant). There was a plunge into the absolute mystery of it all?. totally beyond words, totally beyond language. For so long there had been a deadness, a lack of joy, a sitting-back and watching the world go by without me. It had been such a denial of the relative, a denial of the ?world?. The world had become the enemy, because it wasn?t essentially real. Everyday human interactions had lost their meaning, because there were no others. After a lifetime of misery and self-consciousness it had initially been a relief to be ?free? from the world of form. But ? and here?s what I couldn?t see then ? the nothingness had just become another trap. The freedom I?d initially found in the emptiness had morphed into a prison. Freedom in the formless had become a denial of form. But, as the Buddhist Heart Sutra has been reminding us for thousands of years: ?Form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form?? There had been a resting in Emptiness. But it still had not been seen in clarity that Emptiness was Form. There was still a ?me? there, subtly denying life. Pretending he was more ?spiritual? or ?awake? than others, feeling smug and safe, and somewhat arrogant, but secretly joyless in his Emptiness. Then one day, it all collapsed. The denial of form could not hold itself up. I cannot put it into words, but if I could, it would be something like this. Jeff, after another day of walking through Oxford, after another day of absolutely nothing, another day of detachment from the world, collapsed on the grass in Christ Church Meadow, and looked up at a shaft of sunlight coming through the branches of a tree. And Life said ?LIVE, DAMN IT, LIVE!? Van hier: http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/re...-and-nihilism/